„Azi în Timişoara, mîine în toată ţara!”

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„Azi în Timişoara,

mîine în toată ţara!”

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Index

Interview with Alina Banciu 3

Interview with Dr. Dragoi 6

Interview with Lorin Fortuna 9

Interview with Danuţ Gavra 13

Interview with Ligia Dugulescu 29

Interview with Mary Dugulescu 44

Interview with Traian Orban 50

Interview with Magdalena Paree-Hahn 67

First interview with Adrian Sanda 82

Second interview with Adrian Sanda 87

3

Interview with Alina Banciu

Can you tell me just what happened in those days of the revolution? Your story.

My father told me, he is one of the vice-presidents now of the museum.

I was at home on 17 December, her father was in the town, and then she, the he went back home. My mother cooked, washed the dishes, because it was Sunday. And he convinced her to go in the town. Till that time he didn’t consider that something dangerous because at that time they didn’t start to shoot against the people. When he came back, he came back alone, it was in the evening. She was in the front of the block of apartments with some neighbors, and he told that, not directly, but he told that she was shot.

He told that he was very disappointed and he told: “People, people, I killed Leontina”. He considered that he shot her… because he convinced her to go into town, it was his idea to go into town and he considered that it was not dangerous. In that night everybody listened to the noise of the bullets, they were shooting the people.

I remained at home with my brothers and sisters, because I had a younger sister and a younger brother. And my father went into town to find Leontina, to find her body.

She was at home, I don’t know many things. My mother, her body was stolen from the hospital and she was cremated in Bucharest.

So you never saw here again and you never know what happened exactly to her.

Yes.

I’m sorry…

I was not at the street, I stayed only at home, but my father belonged to the demonstrators who shouted against the system.

Maybe a weird question for you but how do you think of the revolution; if you see the changes after, what happened?

4 I was 13, and my younger brother and sister wer 11 and 2,5. I remembered that my youngest brother asked me: “where is my mam?” I wasn’t in the middle of the demonstration, so, I don’t know many things about the events. I read a lot of things about and now I know a many things, but I wasn’t in the middle, I was a child at home, I know only what happened with my family.

So you read that it was a good thing for Romania, but it doesn’t feel like that for you?

Yes. It was very painful for me and my family, you can imagine, three little children alone without a mam. I became the housekeeper of the family, I had to do everything. But after that, we can travel, we can do many things.

From a point of view, it is something good but… It is always connected with a lot of

pain…

How did you environment, the people around you react on what happened? Was she seen like a hero, or as just something very bad? How did they react?

I didn’t think about that, yes, maybe. My grandmother and other persons considered that it was better that she remained at home with her kids. But for that moment they didn’t started to shoot against the persons, maybe they didn’t think that they could shoot. Of course my grandmother, my mother’s mom, and other relatives didn’t consider her as a hero, because it was better if she remained at home. Nobody wants heroes in their families… only heroes who stay alive.

<Translator>

5 And now you know, after the revolution, because I was very afraid of the noise, when I listen when someone wants to open the Champaign, also I put my hands on my ears, spontaneously, after 22 years I cannot support the noise, because I didn’t know when appears this noise, in that second I cannot control myself.

How did the government and the society react, not at that moment, but in the years after, were they giving support or…?

They give us support and they helped us, from the point of view of financial. No psychological help, only financial.

6

Interview with Dr. Dragoi

Dr. Dragoi, as you have don´t have much time, please allow me a few questions. First of all, how are you involved?

Twenty-one years ago I was a young medical. I finished college in 1981. In 1989 when the revolution started I was a medical doctor in Buziaş1. My family, my little boy and my wife, lived in Timişoara. On 17 December, I heard some movement and I just came to Timişoara. During the revolution I stayed in Timişoara to see what was going on. I participated in the movement on the streets from 17 to 19 December. I participated as well in the Democratic Front of Romania. I returned to work on 21 December. On 22 December I heard and I saw on television that Ceauşescu fled Bucharest. I returned to Timişoara, and I took part in the manifestation on Opera square. The news about the events in Timişoara was spread over the country. In the evening they were shooting many people who were in Opera square, so as I am a doctor, I decided to go to the hospital as a volunteer to help. When I walked to the hospital, two other people walked with me, one colleague and one friend. Around 10 o´clock in the evening, when we were walking to the hospital, they started to shoot on us and I was shot in my leg. I went to the hospital, the same as were I wanted to go to work. I went to surgery and stayed in the hospital on the intensive care on 23, 24 and 25th of December, where I saw the trial of Ceauşescu on television. On 27 December there came a hospital train in Timişoara train station full with doctors from the Lorenz Böhler Krankenhaus in Vienna. They brought some good materials and medicines which were hard to find in a Romanian hospital at that time. These doctors did a lot of surgery in the hospital until 12th of January 1990, including me. They decided to take 22 heavy wounded people to the Böhler Krankenhaus in Vienna to do the surgery there. This is just a little about what happened to me in the revolution.

You told me you involved 17 till 19 December on the street and you participated in the front, so you were in the opera.

No, I didn´t participate in the Front, I assisted them. I participated on the street.

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Can you tell me what was going on, on the streets and how you were feeling about it?

Yes, for example, In that time I was living in the Arad area of the city, they did no shoot in my part of the city so I wasn´t involved directly. On 18 and 19 December I was participating in front of the city hall. I went to the manifestation on 20 December, the day that the workers went on strike and de crowd was bigger than before. The people knew that something would happen. Or we die, or they lose power. They knew something would happen. In the afternoon there was in front of the building of the Communist Party a big crowd, including me and my family, not my wife, but my grandma and uncle, and they sung for the first time “Deșteaptă-te, române”, Wake up, Romanians! We shouted

“Jos Ceauşescu!”, Down with Ceauşescu and we wrote that on the wall with graffiti. We

shouted “Libertate”, Freedom, and we had the courage to fight against the regime, although many people were injured or died. From 21 to 22 I was back in Buziaş, but then I returned to Timişoara. In the afternoon Ceauşescu fled, but the army was on the streets but the choose side of the people and did not shoot anymore into the crowd. We shouted

“Armat est cu noi!”, the army is with us. In 23 December there was a new fight between

people who supported Ceauşescu and people who were against him. People where very confused, there were fights, terrorists, a confusing time. My strong feeling on 20 December was, when I saw the big crowd who didn´t want to go home, that they knew what they want. This all happened in Timişoara, afterwards it started in Bucharest on 21 December. From 17 to 20 December it happened only in Timişoara, what was an isolated city, isolated by the regime.

You are a doctor. As a doctor, how was the treatment in the hospital?

8

Another question: was it all worth it?

Yes. It was awful. We still have problems here due to the revolution, I have a problem with my leg, other patients coming here having problems but now we have freedom, freedom of travel, freedom of expression and so on. That was my motivation to go in the streets. We wanted to be like Hungarian and Serbian people, because as Timişoara is very close to the border, we could see that they were free. We wanted the same. We knew about the arrangement of Gorbachev and president Bush of the United States of America to clean Eastern Europe. But we didn´t see the KGB or American secret services in our streets to tell us to go, we did it ourselves. Ceauşescu and his regime took our freedom, we won it back. After this events I went on with my job as a medical doctor. Last week I was in a medical conference in London. In communist times that was impossible.

How well were you informed before the revolution about what was happening in other countries in Eastern Europe?

We heard about it on Radio ´Europa Libere´ and we watched Hungarian and Serbian television, so we knew what was going on in for example Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary and East Germany.

Dr. Dragoi, Thank you very much for your time and your answers.

Thank you too and good luck. You know, when I was in the hospital, nearby me was an American journalist who was shot in the back. Ten years ago this journalist came back to have another interview with me. He was from the New York Times, you should find it.2

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9

Interview with Lorin Fortuna

Mr. Fortuna starts to talk about the present. He organizes a lot of conferences about the revolution and the results afterwards

We talked in the conference about what happened after the revolution, politically. We want to make a revolution for good things. It is much worse now than we expected at that time. In many points our political leaders now are much worse than they were before. We will think to start a new revolution against those politicians, because the constitution is not right. If you don’t have a good constitution the people who are in charge can do whatever they want. In our constitution we don’t have a law for the politicians who do not take care about the people to stop them. We can’t stop politicians who make wrong laws. In our system the situation is that if you win the elections you can do for four years whatever you want, without any possibility to stop those people. Three things can change something: Elections, Revolution and Revolt. Politicians here do not anticipate. When they win the elections they don’t look to the next one.

You were the leader of the group in the opera…

I was the leader of the Romanian Democratic Front. It was my idea to get in the opera to form a small group and to call this group “Frontul Democratic Român”. I came with the idea to make the proclamation as well. If I didn’t do it the Ceauşescu government would destroy the revolution. The people needed someone to lead them. In our group there were only intellectuals, I was a teacher at the university. In Timişoara it was easy as the intellectuals were leading the group, in Bucharest it were simple people and they made mistakes. It is very important to know what you want to change if you win the revolution. You should not only fight against the government. If you win the revolution, you can judge the dictator. If the dictator wins, he can kill the revolutionaries.

What happened exactly in the Opera building with the group?

10 said it is better to go up there to speak to the people because here thousands of people were standing and up there they all could see us. <<Fortuna shows a picture of the crowd

with in the middle a truck with bread>>. In the beginning there were not so many, in 22

December it was almost 200.000 people. You can see the people; you can see the truck that brought the needs for the crowd. For one week Timişoara was left alone, the people didn’t go home because they thought that if they went home the Securitate would take the square and the revolution was lost.

So you went in, and what happened then?

I knew someone who worked in the Opera. He said let’s go to the back door, to talk there with the person to let us in. So we split in two groups one to the main door and one to the back door. We agreed that if we are not back in 20 to 30 minutes that means we are arrested and we have to go through the main door, because at the backside there is a military group. The group went to the back door and had some fighting with the military group lead by a major. The major, Paul Vasile, he said if you want to force this door I have order to shoot you. Iordache said: “If you want to shoot, first of all shoot me”, putting his clothes up. When Iordache did this the officer and his troops were very surprised and got scared as the crowd was pushing. In this square at that time approximate 50 people were killed and 900 arrested. The people were very irritated by what was going on. Some of the people who had died their body was taken from Timişoara and brought to Bucharest, burned in a crematory and their ashes was scattered over the channel.

What happened exactly inside the opera?

13

Interview with Mr. Danuţ Gavra

The interview is given in Romanian. The translator speaks both Romanian and English, Mr. Gavra Romanian and a little German and the author English and German. Therefore the interview is mainly in English (simultaneously translated from Romanian) but with now and then some parts in German.

Mr Gavra, can you tell me what happened those days?

15 in ordnung”. “Nein, nein,” haben wir gesacht, “nein!” Wir möchten zusammmen sprechen, muss schreiben.

16 away and the group was taking again the place, like it was before. In that time, we talk about 11 o’clock, 23:23, I looked to my watch because in that time I had to take the tram back.

17 But this young lady was thinking much more clearly than me, and I observed many ladies in that time they had much more courage than men and they were thinking in a good way, much more clear. In general, when we pass the difficult moments, women are thinking much clearer. We know that, because we have in our homes wonderful ladies, we have this experience. In the front of the orthodox church there were 40 people, and when I had the experience with this lady I was coming near the Opera square.

They were shouting: “Nu ne solidaridem”. Nicht solidariseren. Was machen andere Leute in diese platz?

Und wie had das gerufen?

Ich habe das erstmals gedacht mit andere Leute. Mit eine junge frau. Ich denke es war ein problem. Ich und andere Leute, 30 Leute in Kathedral platz, nicht solidarität. Nicht mit dem slecht leute. Nicht mit dem Kommunisten.

I realized when I saw the people destroying the shops that it is not good. I was thinking and the group was thinking, someone behind wants to put the crowd to destroy it. It is not normal to destroy it.

So, not the normal people wanted to this, but let’s say people who are involved with the Securitate…

Behind this action, someone was pushing this. Let me tell you what the police was catching. In the shop were very expensive clothes, like animal clothes (fur), somebody put in gas and fire and this shop burned. This shop was in an apartment block, and behind the block was a big gas station. They wanted to destroy this station, to make a big explosion, to kill a lot of people. Above the shop many families lived. So, who put in the fire, thought I will destroy this shop, I will destroy this gas station, and we will make a mess, we will kill a lot of people.

Yes, and not only inside the shop, but also outside.

18 destroy only, not to steal. On December 17 at six o’clock, we were on the steps of the cathedral and the crowd was shouting against communists. One of the requests was passports, we want to travel, and another one was free elections. I remember one lady was screaming “Vrem faine şi mălai, şi pe Regele Mihai”, we want sunflower from the corn, we want white flour, and we want the king back, King Mihai. Let me tell you just a little bit about our history. A long time ago, in 1600 we had a big leader, a Voivod, called Mihai the Great. When I heard the lady screaming, I was thinking: Oh this lady was asking about Mihai the Great, not the Mihai the king. Because in history they didn’t teach us about the king. So, I asked the lady” why do you ask about this Michael the Great, because he died in 1601?” The lady was very curious, she watched me, and told me: “you don’t know anything about king Mihai?” I said yes, this was the king who tried to unify the different parts of Romania. But the lady said: “No, we don’t talk about this man. We talk about the son of Carol, King Mihai.” This was the first time, in front of the Cathedral, that I heard the truth about our history, about King Mihai. Around six o’clock in the afternoon, a lot of people were on the church steps, and a lot of people were coming and the crowd was growing. Nearby the city hall and Philharmonic, the government was calling the army. They give them guns to kill the people. Machine guns, the ones for a war. When I saw what was going on, I went in front of the army and I told them: you can shoot us, we are Romanian like you are, so, shoot us. I was in front of the soldier and the soldier put the gun on my chest. And in this time, the people in the square was playing “Hora Unirii”, a traditional dance, it showed that we are one. You know, Walachians, the Moldavians, and the Romanians and came together. The revolution group decided to change the anthem. And also we choose as national anthem: “Wake up, Romania!” In the square in front of the city hall and the Philharmonic at 18 o’clock the new anthem of Romania was born. We didn’t know the verse but we tried to start: wake up, Romania. Every time again the first sentences.

19 middle and we were dancing, like a unity dance. I found out the students were locked in the campus, they didn’t let them go out. Nearby the Orthodox building, we made a big crowd in the middle of the street. In that time we didn’t have a lot of cars, so it was empty, the space was very large. The people were coming in the middle of the street, they made a big crowd. We decide to choose one girl and one boy to take the flag in the middle of the crowd. One small group was nearby the flag to protect the flag. Behind en before the flag was a big group to protect the flag, in that time there were two or three hundred people. The group walked, they started from the cathedral, walked to the bridge (in the direction of the university), lots of people want to carry the flag, so they changed all the time. I was the first who took the flag; I don’t know who was with the girl with me. When I gave the flag to the other guy when we were walking, the group was started to shouted slogans against communist. One of the slogans was: Let the students be free! Let them unite with us!

Alle kommt zusammen! Alle kommt zusammen mit uns!

20 coming with us, and every stop one of the men, not a leader, everything was spontaneous, no leaders, they put a men on the shoulders to encourage the group. I told you the final goal was to go to the militia, they started at the Orthodox church, they stopped at the student area, and they went to the police station, in Pestalozzi street. In Pestalozzi street the group was stopped, and Dana asked me: raise me up to see what is going on in the back. We had a lot of people behind us so, I hold her to see what was going on, and she was so enthusiastic when she saw the crowd. She said: “we are with four or five thousands! I cannot see all of them, because around the corner are still lots of them.” So erst wir haben 200/300 und jetzt wir haben 5.000, aber es ist nur eine gruppe. In andere Plätze wir haben auch Gruppe. Diese ist meine gruppe.

From Pestalozzi, we went to a square3, we call the national square, there they made now a big circle, which wasn’t there in that time, from this square you can split in two ways, one is going to the Bega river, the other is going to the police section, the Miliţia. The man who was behind the crowd said the right part has to go to the Centre, because there are a lot of people injured there, the other part had go to the police station. Our group which had the flag went nearby the Bega canal and the park, on a small street, and that street is going to the Miliţia. We only walked a few meters.

Let me explain: this is Bega river, and this is the park, and we were here. We just split into two groups. Our group was around 2.500 people, and this is the bridge, called Decebal bridge. Before the bridge there was a group of soldiers. The soldiers split in two parts, one Stayed straight, the other stayed nearby. These soldiers waited the group of demonstrators, they were ready to shoot. Our way was straight, we had to cross the bridge and after that to go to the police station. But in front of the bridge there were the soldiers. I think, in our group was the Securitate involved, and they told them what was going on. So the soldiers knew who was coming to the police section. In that time it was very dark, so I don’t know how many meters we walked on the roundabout until we saw the soldiers. Our groups stopped and splitted. We shouted: no violence, no violence! A couple of minutes we shout: no violence! And the soldiers group started to shoot. I saw a man who was leading the group of soldiers, and he was smoking in that time. Later, I found out he was major in the army. I think the sign was when he was done with the

21 cigar, when the cigar falls down, they can start to shoot. So, he was smoking and they were waiting the demonstrators to come closer, and they started to shoot. I think that was a sign. I want you to use your imagination. Remember, the group who was protecting the flag, the crowd after the flag, we were just walking together. We were arranged, boy, girl, boy, girl. On my right side was Dana, and on the other side was Roxanna, but I didn’t know much about her. I was shot when the military start shooting, both girls disappeared. I don’t know what was going on. Probably they were dying, because there was a shooting. I don’t know, I was alone, you know, in a couple of seconds nobody/somebody was with me. I was very shocked. I saw the bullets which were coming. You know, before me was an invisible guard, the bullets were coming like separated, four pieces were coming nearby the ear, I heard the bullets and I saw the bullets. I was very afraid because I saw the bullets. I thought this is the moment when I die, how is it looking when I die…

When they shoot, after a couple of minutes they stopped. I was in the middle of the street, I turned and run away. When they started to shoot I was the only one who stayed up, I didn’t realize in that moment what was going on. I was shocked and I was thinking: I have to get down. In that second one bullet was coming and catches the road and was going up. So I was afraid to… In that moment I realized the best idea is to run away. <<He shows his leg>>

In that time I tried to run away and one bullet hit my leg, when I was running. When the bullet was coming I was flying back for two meters.

Dum dum patronen, weist du, Dum dum geschossen, Warum?? Eine Kapitan had gesagt: wohin weist Du die patrone ist Dum dum? Eine normal patron wann in geht und kommt aus ist ein bisher grosser … Nur ein bisschen aber ich, meine fuss, entschuldiging, 20-25 cm .. allebei die knochen gegangen. Vleisch auch, nu rein bischen, Hier kommt patron, so gros sist, aber hier ist normal Haut.

22 later, someone took me to the hospital as he saw what was going on as he explained me later. I knew about the bullets. We have a law, we cannot use these kind of bullets. It doesn’t matter if it is illegal, or if you go to a war, you cannot use it. But the Romanian army used it against their own people. ‘Dogs’. I think those who shot, they are not Romanian. Romanian people are nice people, they are hospitable. But we cross, in our history, 45 years, nearby communist and Sovjet ideas. They teached us to be much worse than animals. When they shot me, my blood was going fast and all the time I was unconscious. In that time I was feeling my life flew away, step by step, not directly. I was trying to stand up. When I was like 25 meters up, how do you call it, you know, I could see my body on the ground and I was ‘flying’ out of my body. In my mind I saw big lights. You know, now I am thinking, I am still shaking. My soul was coming out of my body and a couple of minutes in front of me it was very dark. I could not see anything, I saw some tunnel. Then I heard some music. One of the melodies I heard I knew, it was Glory, Glory, Hallelujah. I didn’t know the other melodies but this one I knew. And all the music I heard were wonderful songs. I could see by myself, because the dark was very dark.. I only heard it. And I knew I only have a two more minutes. I knew I will walk only two minutes in this tunnel and after, at the end of this tunnel I will see the Lord Jesus. In that time when I almost died, in my heart felt a very big joy.

24 protected the smell by using auto tires, to cover by this smell the smell of burned flesh for the people in the city.

So, they took me in the hospital and God took care of me with these brothers, they hided me, so I didn’t meet the Securitate. That was in December 17, nearby eight o’clock in the evening, so they took me in the hospital. They’ve hidden me till Tuesday morning (19 December), till the attorney catches me. They came in my room and they tried to ask me: what were you doing on 15 till 17 December? They had a paper, a white paper, and they wrote, and I didn’t realize why they were writing. At the end of the list they made me to sign. They threatened me, they told me to be very careful. If I didn’t sign I had to go to jail. They told me when you are finished in the hospital; we can send you to jail, because you arranged it to sell the country to the Hungarian people. In that time I was working in the factory so I didn’t know much about the code of army, I didn’t know much about guns. It didn’t matter what question they asked, because I didn’t know the answer. I told you they had a white paper, they wrote down, I don’t know what. When they finished and I signed, they said: “you go back to your room now and we will call you back later, to put other questions”. After 5 minutes they took me, but not in my room, they put me in an ambulance. I disappeared from the hospital. And they took me from Judeţean hospital and they brought me to the orthopaedic hospital.

Who took you yo the other hospital?

Ambulance people, I don’t know!

Not the secret police? Other people?

Not the Securitate. Vielleicht dieses Christlichen frau. Andere leute.

25 in this hospital. They gave me only two kinds of medicine, Diazepam for sleeping and Fasconal for pain. They used benzine for disinfection, because they didn’t have much medicine in the hospital in that time. When they shot me, my skin was coming out, and you could see the muscles and the bones very well. When they cleaned it they didn’t give me a shot for the pain. So they took the scissor and cut, without medicine, they used benzene. It caused gangrene, it has eaten my whole leg and the infection was very bad. My knees were okay, but under the knees it was very bad. So in the beginning (17 December) they cut my leg under my knee, not my whole leg. So I didn’t have my whole leg because they cut it. When they shot me, in the same time when they took me to the hospital they took me in the operating room and they cut half of my leg. After two weeks in this hospital, Austrian doctors came to help. I had a lot of luck and blessing. The Austrian doctors were working on my leg, cleaning and cutting what was bad. When he saw the leg problem they tried to repair all what could be done. When the doctor saw the leg, he called to Austria to bring a plane to take him. This doctor, who came to Romania was the highest boss. He had power to call the ambulance airplane.

Da kommt eine flugzeug here in Temeschwar..

Und had Ihnen nach Wien geflogen.

He flew to Vienna. When he came at Vienna airport, a lot of reporters took pictures. He was the first wounded from Timişoara.

Did you see this articles?

Yes, but I could not understand in that time, it was written in German. If you watch on the internet, and you write his name Gavra Danuts you can find the newspaper. As well as Romanian and Austrian newspapers. And also on the Christian radio, Evangelical Voice, you can find it.

26

Another question: you told about the first day, you said you were at the church of Tökés and you came at 10 o’clock in front of the church and you stayed there the whole day, why??

In that time I was free, I didn’t have to go to work, so I had time to stay.

Yes, but why did you decide to stay?

In that time we didn’t have a goal. I decided to share about the news from Radio Free Europe and I liked it as well, as well to share the good news. It was a good opportunity to tell them about Christ.

Then: you said, in the beginning the group was a religious group, protecting Tökés, than you said it became an communistic group. My question is why did it became an anti-communistic group?

In 15 December, it was not a political movement. Later… All day…

In our group there were different kinds of people. Reformed, Baptist and non-Christian. The non-Christian people started to shout against communism. That was political involvement, people who did not agree with Ceauşescu, with communist politics. So it started small. When they saw the people around pastor Tökés, it was a good opportunity to start against Communism. Till 4 o’clock in the afternoon it was only the religious group to protect their pastor. After, there were a lot of people coming from their work, realizing what was going on and they changed it just little by little from religious into political stuff. It was not a plan.

It was not like it was Christian and now it is political.

27 opportunity to go to Serbia, and Serbia was the kind of land where people could ‘fly’ away to the West. But it was difficult, because many Serbian soldiers were paid by the Romanian government and all who want to try to get out, where sent back.

Why do you think that this small thing can become a big transition in Romania? Because it was very small, just the replacing of one pastor, why do you think it was the starting of the big revolution in Romania?

Let me explain by the verses from the bible. If we start to make one small step for God, he will take care and He will make not only one but a thousand steps. I think God was waiting for this opportunity. Sometimes, my opinion is like this, God will respect our opinion, so He was waiting until many Romanian people wishes to be free. For 45 years Romanian people denied God. They told us God does not exist, they teach us in school and in university. In that time we shouted: “Exista Dumnezeu! Dumnezeu este cu noi!” God exists, and God is with us! The most teenagers learned against God, but in that time they were screaming: God exists, God exists! And I think that was the small fire. And God put gasoline on this. It is my opinion, I think it was God’s revolution, not ours. We were like tools of God. We only took two rocks and God was blowing to make the fire. In that time we just feel it; we just smelled it, the freedom. God gave us for the first time the smell of freedom. One of the slogans was: We die and will be free. It was like accepting God, not denying anymore, like 45 years before.

My last question is: was it worth it?

28 we didn’t have materials. We couldn’t buy anything. And now we have a lot of shops and materials but we don’t have money. Here in Timişoara, it was not much worse than in other places. I think it was not an economical revolution. The one reason of this revolution was a spiritual revolution. We started with a religious revolution and the next step was that they confiscated our religious revolution and transformed it in a political one, as well as the group, especially the party, the neo-communists. I can say: who was the communist they took the power, but with another name, they still act like communists. The leader of this group is Ion Iliescu. Some of the revolutionary think he was a good leader, some of them think not, it was a communist. So, this is the one reason that our economy stayed, and was not growing. When the lady was screaming on the step of the Orthodox church for the King to come back, she tried not only to invite him back in Romania, but also to let him become our leader again.

So, you want Romania to be a monarchy again?(just like Holland?)

Yes, absolutely. Only a monarchy can save Romania. You see, especially in Europe, the countries that have a king or queen, they are very healthy. When I read the history, I realized, the countries that have a president, they have a lot of problems, economical problems, political problems and also wars. But the countries who have a queen or a king are much more healthy. I think, and this is my opinion, monarchy can save the world. It is not necessary to be King Mihai, but the institute of monarchy.

Herzlichen Dank!

I am so glad because I had the opportunity not to bury my history but to share my history, as well to let the history be known by people like you and as well my grand grandchildren. Probably you will write down your thesis and this thesis can be a witness to our children. And also the historian of the future will read it. Whatever I shared with you, it came from my heart, and I tried to tell only the truth. It was many events, but my mind was limited, so, I cannot remember all.

29

Interview with Ligia Dugulescu

I would like to hear your story about the revolution in Timisoara in 1989. You were a nurse in that time?

30 building. So, every night we had evangelism, six services there, with a different pastor each night, and over a thousand two hundred people were attending that every night. So when we came out of the church service in Betel, the way to go back to tram station, than to the center of the city, was to go by the Hungarian church. So a lot of the people stopped there because, what happened when we went to church, there was a small crowd, when we came back already the trams were blocked. No traffic was able to go through that area. My father was contacted by László Tökés, at that point, because his wife was pregnant and so the doctor who went to see her because she was not feeling good, was a friend of my father. He brought the first ultrasound machine to Timişoara, so this doctor worked with that ultrasound machine. And he was a Hungarian doctor.

And so he went to the church to ask my dad for help on behalf of pastor Laszlo Tökés. And that is how a group of young people was sent there, that’s how Danuţ Gavra and the others were there, just to make sure the crowd will have a good attitude and it would be a spirit of peace and they started singing Christian songs and that’s when they shared the candles. So it was a very peaceful meeting in the beginning. And you know, it is true that a spark of the revolution was with this Christian movement and actually it was not a political revolution in the beginning, you know. The Romanian revolution was a spiritual one, before it went to be a political one. Plus my dad used to say the term revolution is not really correct because a revolution means that one armed class would fight against another armed class and one wins, but in Romania the people had no weapons, nothing to fight with, just bare hands. And, you know, that had to fight with the army, in the end, and with armed forces and God has brought the freedom. That’s amazing and that is the miracle of the Romanian revolution.

31 could see that only later on television, people instead of praising and clapping for him, they started to shout against him. And he was shocked, because you know, he never heard that noise, that sound from the crowds. He always, you know, he was very praised and appreciated, because people where forced to do that, when he would have a meeting. And he was saying that what is happening in Timisoara was because of foreign influences, and that, you know, we have to be careful and defend our country. Those people, you know, like in Timişoara, are guilty of what is going on, and then you know, the people that were attending they were just saying: booh, down Ceaucescu! And you know, he was scared, and then he went back in the balcony and to probably consult with some people, to see what to say, what to do in that situation, and then he came back outside and promised them more pensions, more money and things, more rewards, people were not impressed and they started again shouting against him. And that is the moment when he actually went back inside went to the roof, left on the helicopter. You know, I believe that was on the 21 or 22 of December when he actually leave that.

So from the 15th of December till that, for one week, Timişoara was by itself in this revolution. Only when he called that meeting, the whole country found out, that’s when Bucharest already started to be involved in the revolution. Many people died in Bucharest. But that’s when also, you know, the army was firing in Timişoara and a lot of people died on the steps of the cathedral, Calea Girocului, what is called the martyrs way now, it’s the street were also a lot of shooting took place. And many of those people, who were wounded, were taking to the hospitals, and you know, everyone who got to the main hospital, the county hospital, spitalul Judeţean, they were killed. Even if they were there just wounded, you know, they ended up to be dead. Those who got out were happy that those people who came out to our hospital, the Victor Babeş hospital, they survived, you know, if of course they didn’t have a very bad wound, but they were not killed, intentionally, like the other wounded were killed.

32 the people confirmed it that there was at least one truckload, if not more, of dead bodies taking to Bucharest, to be burned. So many people have never found their loved ones, the victims. And in Timişoara, the heroes cemetery, there are many bodies that are not identified also, that have no names, but that were there from the revolution. And that is sad, because, you know, it was a huge price paid for the freedom we have today. I think it is really important to realize that Romania was not always free and that it was not always open, and it was not always were it is right now, and you know, people died to let these things happen.

So, can you describe what happened in the hospital? I think you had shifts?

Yes, we worked in shifts and in our hospital where I worked, things were normal even though it was dangerous. I remember going with the ambulance to a different hospital for a patient, and you know, being afraid lets you drive through the city with the ambulance, you know, with the patient. In our hospital things were normal, you know, we worked in three shifts. In the main hospital, you know, people testified that they were secret police officers dressed as doctors, who were actually there waiting for these patients to be killed. Because they didn’t want any witnesses, you know, they wanted to… they thought they could really destroy everybody who was part of the revolution. And you know, the night when they started to actually fire, they arrested many people, who were in prison and they didn’t know how the revolution would turn out, if one day they will be free again or they would be killed, you know, I am sure that if Ceauşescu would not have been caught and have been executed, this people would have been executed.

But what happened exactly in the hospital? I think, you were just starting you shift and then the people came wounded in, or it was not in your shift or, what you did you see?

This happened for a few days, it was not only during one shift, you know. And they were always taking directly to the operating room. So, that’s what I saw, people that came by ambulance because they were shot, and because they needed to be, the bullet needed to be taken out, so if it was in their thoracic part, it would be in our hospital.

33 Because that’s where the majority of the people would end up, you know, they couldn’t concentrate. We have many hospitals in Timişoara, and I think…, plus I think it has to do a lot with the leadership of the hospital, and you know, I think, people in this hospital were I worked, were not compromised, you know, but over there I think somebody else took power during that time and they decided that they will rule the hospital rather then the doctors, you know, and I think that is what happened with the main hospital, being the county hospital. I think the leader of the secret police went in, and they just decided, you know, they impose on the other people, what they will have to do. I don’t think any doctor would kill a patient, you know. But I think that a doctor could be weak where they say, well here, you do whatever, you know, you have access.

Was it worth it?

If the revolution was worth it? Yes. It was. Definitely. Yeah. I don’t know where Romania would be today if that, if the communism would have continued. It was a dry place in a way, I think it would have probably been harder and harder, people now look at the good parts of the communism, many of the people that have a hard life, now and it is much harder during democracy to make a living and to have everything that people were used to having. But I think that for the young people, it is a huge opportunity. To do something with their life, to have a future, to have hope, to have aspirations. Before people could not even travel, now everybody is going in foreign country for their vacation. It seems so normal now, but before people did not even have a passport. It was this thing, a big deal to have a passport to go to Budapest, to go to Hungary. So, I think it was worth it, definitely, for the future generation… But it is not all…, there is no perfect society. So I think that is what people are complaining about. Because there are things in this type of society that are not alright, or they are not a hundred percent wonderful. But you know, you cannot expect that. Because in this world there is no perfect place, no perfect country. But from all points of view it is much better to be in democracy and freedom, than to be under communism.

34 Well, we went every time, in the minute that we came out of work to the Opera square. That’s where everything took place. People in Timişoara were gathered day and night in the Opera square. It was really interesting because it was Christmas time, it was right before Christmas. It was very warm; the temperature was excellent to be in the Opera square. So people were not freezing, because it was just wonderful weather, and the restaurants in that area, were taking hot bread from the bread factories and hot tea and just sharing it in the square. People were eating there, spending there as much time as they could, and from the balcony of the Opera many, many speakers were taking terms, speaking from the Opera balcony to the crowd. So that’s what I was doing, from work I was running there, I was standing there as long as possible. At night I would go home to get rest and then in the morning I’ll come back or I would be at work. So that was just what I did. And most of the people, that’s what they did during those days. They were just there all the time. And we had church services every evening as well, because it was the week, what I told you, when we had every night a church service.

And those just continued?

35 people burned the books and the store but we think that somebody was placed to do it by the secret police.

How many wounded were there?

I don’t know the number, probably you can get that from the revolution museum, they have all of that data there. I don’t know numbers, but I know there were many people. And we have the memorial; I mean we have the statue in front of the cathedral that is a monument actually for the people that were killed during the revolution. And there is one in Bucharest as well. I don’t know how many people. But during that time, you know, people were not trusting anybody anymore. I remember they were stop you to check if you were a secret police person, they throw cars in the river. Even a fire truck thrown in the river by the people, in the Bega kanal, it was really a unique time. Very interesting…

I see. Very interesting.

I think it was a lot of… people held it inside of them for so long, that when that time actually came, they did not count the costs, they did not care about the consequences, they were just free, finally. They could do whatever they felt and to show how tired they were of the regime of the communism. They had a lot of courage. Because it really takes courage to do all of the things they did, knowing what the consequences could be.

I heard the big factories in Timişoara were on strike?

Yeah, a lot of them were on strike because they wanted to be on the square. So a lot of the people were not going to work. And the people who ran the factories were not upset either, because they were working for the communist government. So if that was gonna end, they didn’t care about their work.

I presume the hospitals just worked on?

36 and joined the crowd, so that was even more frustrating for him because instead of having them come and solve the situation, they came to join the crowd and to fight against communism. And we heard that Elena Ceauşescu, his wife, wanted to destroy Timişoara. The first days she thought the solution was to actually sent a biological bomb, she would preserved the city, the buildings but have all that’s living will die because of that. So that was her idea. We believe that the general who was running the army in that time, refused to obey her order, and I think that’s why she shot him. Because they say he committed suicide. Why would a general commit suicide during the crisis, if there was not a very strong reason. So he was asked to do actually something against the people. And he didn’t want to do that.

Can you remember where you were and what you were thinking and feeling at the moment the news came that, let’s say, that is was over. That Ceauşescu has flow away.

37 Romania, they were not a solution, but they were there at the crucial moment, they took advantage, you know, of the situation. The people paid their price, the young people died, and then here some political guys, who have been communists all their lives, are now the leaders of new Romania. So I think that made Romania having a slow start in this new process of democracy, because the new people that came, were not the good guys, were not prepared, they were not leaders, they were just profiteers. They wanted to actually lead the country just because they were there at the right time.

What happened in Timişoara the days after… because what we know from history books, is just: it started in Timişoara, and then it was taking over in let’s say Bucharest and then it was done. But what happened here in those days? When it already was in Bucharest??

39 were treated and mistreated and kids were running away from those state orphanages after the revolution, they were running away from there dysfunctional families, many of them. So all the big cities suddenly had street children, because they were just trying to be independent. And, after the revolution they were able to be independent…

And did you continue to work in the hospital, or?

I worked in the hospital until January of ’90, when I left to go to The States, and I went to a Christian university there.

So, actually, you worked only very short in the hospital?

Very short, I worked from ’88, a little over a year, like a year and a half, because I finished when I was 18, so worked for a year and a little bit.

And then, you had, suddenly the opportunity to leave?

Yeah…

Because everything changed.

Yeah… A little over a year, yeah…

Maybe a weird question, but can you describe how it feels when you, let’s say a week ago you can do nothing and now you can do everything?

40 to school to learn a skill, that’s how you learn to… that’s a new skill, how to live in freedom. What it takes and what it means. So, for many years I think we went through this new situation, there are people who adapted and people who never adapted to that. That’s why you see people in Romania that will say the revolution and the life now is wonderful compared to what it was and you see people that would say: oohh, it was better during communism. We regret the fact that it is not like then. It is exactly how, if you move to another country, you can adapt to the culture, to the new opportunities and the people there. And then there are people who say: oohh, in my town it was much better… But they are struggling in a new place, looking back at a place were they think it’s better. So, that’s how, we were not in the old system anymore, we were in freedom, but there were people who were living in the past, you cannot do that, you have to move at the same pace, that’s life, it changes. That, for some people it was overwhelming, especially for the older generation. I think this was, our revolution, as I said, it was first spiritual, and it was then political. And it was a miracle of God and it was really, I mean, the price was paid by the young people. They were on the streets, not the old people. Not many of the people of the older generation were there, fighting for the freedom.

Do you know why the revolution became from religious political?

41 think, the people who gathered around that small crowd had no idea what the reason was why they were actually there. And they started to use that, to bring out all their political frustration. That’s why it became political, because the political state was so full of tension that everyone was full of it and sick of it, and they would just complain about it, people were unhappy with the fact that they had a ratio on everything, on food, on water, on oil, on flour, on sugar. I mean you felt like you were a robot, going from one month to the other with, and they will tell you, you put so much butter on your bread each day, you can put so much sugar in your coffee. So people are not robots, and they feel, they have feelings and they have thoughts and they are very intelligent and most of the people in Timişoara were very educated people. So they, even if you don’t go outside of the country, reading can bring you a different world in your home. So people knew that this is not it. This is not the life they wanted. And I think that’s why it moved so easily from a spiritual group, who was singing and praying and helping the pastor, to this political movement. Because that was actually the common problem Romania had, they were all oppressed by communism.

And finally Tökés indeed was taken and brought away. That’s quite interesting to me as a foreigner, that he was still captured and brought to, I don’t know, somewhere in the North…

42 brought the freedom, it is his gift to Romania really. I mean people were just blessed and they were part of it. yeah, they paid a price, but they really did not do anything to win it.

Some people say there were a lot of foreigners involved, do you think it is true?

No, no. It’s a lie, that’s Ceauşescu’s lie, that’s what he wanted to make people believe, that it is an idea that came from outside the borders, it is not so.

But was it a little bit true? Because for example, radio Europa Libere.

The radio was helping people to know what was going on. Of course they found out about the Wall, and everything. But still with all the information we have you can not change your reality, just based on that. So, yeah, it is true that people were listening to what was going on in other countries, but those people didn’t come to plan anything in Romania, because he was trying to say like there were leaders, who had a strategy, and they were applying a strategy in Timişoara, and that is not real, there were no foreign leaders. This started with Romanians and of course this Romanian people were not stupid, they listened to radio, they had information, they wanted a different society, but they did not have foreign leaders to follow, that was what he was trying to say. That it was like a strategy from outside to come to conquer the west part of Romania, because you know how the tension between Hungary and Romania is. That is what he was playing then, he knew how sensitive that part was, and so it is like on the west, Timişoara, clearly would be, maybe influenced by Hungarians and Austrians, or something like that. But it was not like that.

How well were you informed in the days before the revolution, nobody knew that is was going to happen, lets say on December 10th, how well did you know what was happening, because it was 1989, what was happening in the other parts of Eastern-Europe, what happened in Eastern Germany, in Poland, in Czechoslovakia?

43 knew what was going on outside of Romania. You never knew the reality of what was going on in Romania. Plus when it happened when the revolution started here, I remember that my youngest sister Eunice, she was born in ‘84, so it was going to be here 5th birthday, she was born on the 16th of December, and I remember that we were afraid for the first time to go and get a Christmas tree, to buy from the market, because already the people started to be there for the manifestations, big crowds were in the city and it was a time when people didn’t know it was safe or not safe to be on the street, what to do. That was the saddest Christmas we ever had, really, it was her 5th birthday I remember that and she didn’t know what was going on. In Timişoara people knew what was going on from the streets, by going on the streets you would find out, but the rest of the country could not even communicate, sometimes the phones didn’t work during that time, you know, so you could not even call your friends in another city. At the time we had no cell phones, you have to understand that, we had no cell phones, only the home lines and they were not working because the main central, wherever they have this, the post office where they have all the wires, they made sure they were not working anymore. And people could not get outside of the county. They had the blocks where you could not leave the county or come into it, so it was an isolated area for a while.

But did the Free Radio report about it?

Not while it was happening.

So even Europa Libera found out later what happened?

Yes. They found out later, they got also, the television station got the reports later. I remember my brother was one of the few people who at that time had a video camera and he recorded it, everything that happened in the revolution square, the Opera square. And his video tape went to all the news channels in Europe and in the world. He was sixteen, no fifteen, he taped everything that happened. At that time he had no idea how valuable that tape could be.

44

Interview with Mary Dugulescu

Can you tell me what you did during those days?

During the revolution I was at home with Eunice because she was five years old at that time. I was praying there for my husband who went in the square with all other three children. Some brothers of our church came and told me about the people in the square and what’s happened there. A lot of people died and they said it is very dangerous in that part, our city. My husband came very late that days at home and slept very little. On 22 he was on the balcony of the Opera house and spoke to the people, maybe 100.000 or 200.00 people and prayed the Lord ’s Prayer. All people kneeled on the floor. They were shouting ‘God exists’, ‘God exists’. It was like a miracle for us, what happened. It was an answer of our prayers. Because we prayed and many people from outside, from England, they told they prayed for Romania to escape from Ceauşescu power. One day my husband went to sleep two days to my brother, because he was informed that they would come and take him and kill him on the opera square because he was on the list of 50 people which could be killed the other day. He said to come with him, but I choose to stay home with Eunice and other children. In that part of city it was worse and I was very glad to stay home. They started to shoot in the walls, in the apartments and they lay on the floor all the time and he couldn’t come back home because of the shooting. Two brothers from Betel church remained with us to keep us safe here. It was okay in our part were we lived, it was peace, only the noise of the shooting was coming, form that part of the city, from Giroc. After two days the soldiers, my husband was in the cemetery because he had a funeral, and the soldiers came to our house searching for radio station and they said from our house they know it’s something like transmitter and they didn’t find anything. We were very afraid because they had guns and Eunice was afraid too to see that. They left, but my husband was not home at that time. That was the worst moment, at that time.

But you have not be outside, on the square, only at home?

45

What did your husband told you about what was going on?

He told, but he came late and went in the morning, not much time to talk. But other brothers informed me, they came to inform me about what happened.

What did you know before the revolution started about what happened in Europe?

We heard from Europa Libere from radio.

What did you hear?

About this countries which became free, but in Romania was more difficult situation, because of the Ceauşescu regime was very strong. A lot of Securistii. I heard later they had a plan to do this, but in spring. But because of Tökés, who was a reformed pastor, he was arrested and they want to send him in prison or, I don’t know, but the people came to protect him. In the beginning in Timişoara it was a Christian revolution like singing, praying, but after a few days they began to shout ‘Freedom’, ‘down with Ceauşescu’. It was transformed in a political revolution.

Do you know why that happened?

Because the people were very oppressed. They don’t have something to eat, they don’t have electricity, and we had a lot of problems in the last years before the revolution. We couldn’t buy enough food, everything was restricted. We had portions, for oil, sugar, salami. I was in a queue and a man was very upset because he had five children and they were selling only 300gr salami, a few slices, not a whole piece. And he said “what to put to other children, I can put this to two children, not to all five”. It was very said. A lot of people suffered, they were hungry and angry about what happened. Television programmes were only two hours programme a day in the evening, and only with Ceauşescu praises, no good programme.

Did you watch other television besides Romanian, for example Hungarian or Serbian?

No, we couldn’t.

46 On radio we could, but in that time I didn’t know very much English, but my husband did. And ‘Europa Libere’ was the best for Romanians as it was in Romanian.

What was so good about Europa Libere?

They informed us about what happened in other countries. They put the letters form some Romanians and they knew the situation in Romania. It was like to inform us about what happened in Romania and other countries.

And you listened every evening, or once in a while?

I couldn’t, but my husband listened every evening with other people, especially man.

What happened just after the revolution here? One day everybody heard that Ceauşescu was gone, that he flew away. And then?

He was killed on 25 of December.

What happened in those days?

47

How did you react, how did the people around you react the moment you heard that Ceauşescu was gone?

They were glad. They shouted. “We are free!” “Now in Timişoara, tomorrow in the whole country.”

How did it feel, when you heard the message he is dead, what did you feel?

Very glad. I felt strange, to kill a man in Christmas day but for us it was liberation from poverty, from big poverty. It was very, very good. Because we Christians we had to suffer because of Ceauşescu. I had to speak, when I was a teacher, to speak anti-God. But I choose some phrases; don’t tell people there is no God. It was so difficult, I must say something but I was a Christian and I didn’t what they want. In the end of my speech in a country city, I was a teacher for four years. After the speech the people from the village could ask me some questions. And I prayed to God don’t let them ask some questions because I knew it is so difficult to say ‘there is no God’ for me, and they didn’t. They said ‘we are content, we are thankful for this teacher.’

Was it all worth it? There were a lot of victims, was it all worth it?

Yes, but it would be better if they all didn’t die. Yes, the changes were visible, but because of our leaders it was very slow, the process of changings. It was very slow. And we still struggle with some problems. But it’s much better. We can go free to the church, we can speak about our faith, we can have meetings and after revolution we had a lot of meetings on the stadiums, on the cultural events. My husband was an evangelist and could ask you to come to the Lord, it was very good. Now it is possible, but it is rare. And they teaching Bible in the school. In Romania it is possible, in America it is not, I heard.

Are there also some things which changed not well, after the revolution?

48 pornography. And now the willing of becoming healthy, there is too much which is not the work of God. We lost the first place for God.

In the mentality of people, is there also something changed?

Everything changed. Some people now divorce, even Christian people. They consider democracy like freedom. They don’t obey to the law, God’s will.

The story of your husband I can read in his book.

Yes, he was asked to proclaim the word from the balcony. My children were afraid in the beginning, they said “don’t go!” but they understood the historic moment was very important. My husband didn’t regret it because it was like a page of history that day. For him it was very important and for Romania and for Timişoara. And he was the first Christian MP in the parliament. This was like a word from the Lord, in ’92 to till 2000, two terms. It was difficult because some Orthodox priests shouted “No, no, not him, put him on the back list” and they put him on the back list, but if God wanted him, he was elected. Once was on the 5th place and once on the 4th place, both times elected. It was a Christian party, PNŢCD.

That was a big change.

Yes. There was a good leader, there was Coposu. He was in the prison for 16 years. He was a good leader, he loved Christians and he wanted for my husband to get there.

But that would be a big change. Your husband was a pastor, repressed by the government and just two years later he was a part of the government.

Yes, it’s just a miracle. Just with Christi4, it was a miracle too. Two days before the list was closed they put him on the list. He got elected, because the people knew my husband, they know he was a good man who loves God and loves people. My son was elected because of his father I think. And now he is doing very well, I think, he is working very hard to keep the people content. I think it will be okay, God will know. It is his will.

49

The revolution changed everything and that in just a few days.

Yes, we had no ID of Timişoara, to live here. After revolution we received and we could buy a house. We came from Haţeg, in ’86. We had difficult times because we couldn’t buy food. They introduced that you only could buy food with an ID from Timişoara. We couldn’t. But people from our church brought us food, that was, praise the Lord, that was a very good time, for us.

Did your husband have contacts with pastor Tökés after the revolution?

Yes, they met, about I don’t know. We don’t like now Tökés, because he is very Hungarian and wants autonomy for some part of our party. That is not good for us. In the revolution my husband sends some young people to him, they were there and they sung and prayed in the streets.

Your husband talked with you after the revolution about what he had done on the balcony?

50

Interview with Mr. Traian Orban

My first question is: can you tell me what you did during the revolution?

Before revolution I listened international radio station of Europe, BBC, Paris, Deutsche Welle, Voice of America, Free Europe. Many days, many months before, I was informed about what happened in whole Eastern Europe. Me and my friends we understood it is possible to eliminate communism, and we were waiting for it to happen also in Romania. And in 16 December I listened to radio Free Europe, the revolution started in Timisoara. In the middle of the night I listen to the radio, they had details about many arrested persons. And in 17 December I came with my friend with the car to look with my eyes one real revolution in Romania, and I was surprised, I saw many, many soldiers, many technology, always with guns or with sticks. Many civilians with weapons and many, many with guns. It was wonderful, to listen and to shout with the people “liberty”. They have emotions because everybody, after 45 years of communism. I entered with the demonstrators, I observed that the repression force tried to split the demonstrators. It is interesting that people disappeared first, but then came with a greater number.

With sticks and guns, the back of the gun, they tried to hit the demonstrators, they didn’t shoot, they didn’t used bullets at that hour, at the beginning. And then they allowed the tanks to go in the center of the town between the demonstrators, in order to expel the people. Personally I saw a man, a demonstrator, the military forces captured him and hit him with the guns, they didn’t shoot him but hit him. I think he died, the people, the demonstrators protested so... And the army moved them between Hotel Continental and

Piaţa Sfântul Gheorghe, in which we have the statue of Gheorghe. People gathered