1 Also named SCs and STs; official designations given to various groups of historically disadvantaged people in
India
2 Derived from the Sanskrit harijanaḥ, meaning person of Hari, child of God. Coined as a euphemism for
3 Local village councils
5 Panchayati Raj Institutions
8 Derived from the Sanskrit word for ‘color’, describing any one of the four traditional social classes of India 9 India’s highest civilian award
10 On 20 March 1927 Ambedkar led a protest for untouchables to use water in a public tank in Mahad
11 Deputy sarpanch
Pashiben (orange sari) with her veiled daughter-in-law and grandchild (Sarpanch Visits: 105)
12 Low Dalit sub-caste
13 Husbands of elected women representatives in panchayat bodies handling official work as proxy for them,
No Date & Time Name & Age Village Block Status Picture 1 07-04, 14.00 Premilaben Dudabhai Makvana, 35 Motatradiya Dhandhuka Head
2 08-04, 11.30 Naniben Bhikhabhai Parmar, 40 Khas Ranpur Head
3 08-04, 14.00 Kaliben Dhanjibhai Solanki, 50 Jalila Ranpur Head
4 09-04, 10.30 Pintuben Jagdishbhai Senma, 33 Rahemalpur Viramgam Head
5 09-04, 13.00 Pashiben Govindbhai Senma, 49 Vadgas Viramgam Head
7 10-04, 13.15 Jashiben Kanubhai Maheriya, 50 Jekda Bavla Head
8 10-04, 15.00 Ushaben Natubhai Shrimali, 47 Rupal Bavla Deputy Head
9 11-04, 11.00 Kashiben Vihabhai Vaghela, 56 Vautha Dholka Head
10 11-04, 14.00 Laxmiben Nathabhai Makvana, 40 Transad Dholka Head
11 13-04, 11.30 Gitaben Maheshbhai Parmar, 37 Bhavapur Sanand Head
12 13-04, 14.00 Ramilaben Rameshbhai Makvana, 31
1. Premilaben Dudabhai Makvana, 35. Sarpanch of Motatradiya village, Dhandhuka block. 07-04-2015, 14.00
Field Notes
Motatradiya is a rather remote village in Dhandhuka block, which is the block that is the furthest away from Ahmedabad. The house Premilaben lives in with her family looks very well looked after and is rather big, with a separate washing area in the back. Three of her daughters are present, the eldest is already married so now lives with her in-laws. Her son is the youngest child. All children are equally charged with fetching me things, the boy also serves drinks. The children stay in the same room through—out the interview, as does her husband. He doesn’t answer the questions that are directed at here. There are also two program officers from Navsarjan present; they contribute to the discussion, making it sometimes unclear to me who answers what question. However, Premilaben answers the majority of the questions herself and does not often turn aside for support or acknowledgement. She does not get up to arrange refreshments, she delegates those tasks to her children. She does not cover her face with her sari at any time during the interview, she does not fidget. She listens to the questions and answers, and when the questions lead to a group discussion she also participates.
Diary
As this is the first day of my field visits, I still need to get used mainly to the fact that I do not know specifically what is going to happen, when and with whom. I decide from the beginning to just ‘roll with it’, making me a rather passive passenger that is nonetheless the center of attention. Preeti, the program officer from Navsarjan Trust that manages Ahmedabad district and who has a specific interest in my topic, is the main organizer of the entire program; she has selected the villages, made an itinerary, contacted a travel agency to arrange a car and has been setting up the meetings with the specific local program officers. I wasn’t entirely aware of the latter and that they would accompany us; when a man jumped in the car at a random crossroads I didn’t want to be rude and ask ‘who is this’, so I just smiled. I in turn wasn’t really introduced, but I understood after a while that Navsarjan Trust works with different program managers per block or specific villages. At another intersection a bit further along the road, another man joined the group in the backseat. I had to stay in the front, as I was ‘The Guest’. This title meant that I was treated as the person who decides, but there was always a preferred answer. To the question, ‘should we have chai (tea) here?’ the expected answer would be ‘Yes, let’s have chai. Also let’s have some snacks!’. Aside from regular lunch, on the road we would stop at least twice for tea and snacks. And in every village we would also be served tea, cold drinks, snacks, buttermilk, etc. The ritual of food and drinks was one that I could already attempt to master the first day; as our car broke down somewhere in the middle of nowhere, yet on walking distance from a village, we walked down to the village so the travel agency could send us a new car. There we had lunch in the home of people that the people from Navsarjan seemed to know. There I discovered that the language barrier would be apparent in every village we would go to; from our party (two male program managers, Preeti, the driver and Amu, the translator) only Amu’s English was fluent and Preeti’s understandable and in the villages no one would speak English. As we are having lunch, Preeti explains that due to the fact that this is the dry season, in rural villages such as these everyone sits at home as there is no farming to be done. I see many children throughout the village and ask if they go to school, the answer is that there is a school in the village and they go. Maybe there are only few hours a day and during the time left the children are at home, playing or helping in the household. By the time a new car is driven to the edge of the village, it is already quite late in the afternoon. Our driver hurriedly transports us over the pot-holed roads to Motatradiya, the village where Premilaben is the sarpanch. As we are received, we get offered water, tea and cold drinks. They usher me to what seems to be one of the only plastic chairs in the room and Premilaben sits down in the other, facing
me. I was hoping for a kind of ‘private’ interview, but I realize now that that will probably never happen in any of the villages I will visit. The program managers sit behind Premilaben on a stretcher, as does Preeti. Amu sits next to me. The husband is also present, he sits a bit further back. The children, mostly the three beautiful teenage girls, keep on smiling at me shyly from the back of the room. I notice that all the children are equally charged with household tasks such as fetching water for me, regardless of their gender. From the very beginning of the interview Premilaben states that she is incapable of doing the panchayat work without her husband, because of her lack of education. She states many times how educated her husband is and how she needs him for the panchayat issues. However, she also says that they really work as a team, which I also gather from the way questions are answered in the interview. He lets her answer her own questions without interrupting, and she doesn’t turn to him for answers. She seems to know very well for herself what the panchayat projects are about and she can describe them in detail. Also she is opinionated on issues of untouchability as well as gender and she gives specific examples of what practices of discrimination are discerned in the village and in the panchayat. She strikes me as a strong woman in a good marriage, also I believe the post of sarpanch has empowered her as a person and enabled her to develop.
Transcript
M Me
Amu Translator, when giving his own interpretations I put (own words)
Preeti Navsarjan Trust, Program Coordinator. She often gives background information during the interviews. What she says can thus often not be seen as direct translations. When she is giving own interpretation I put (own words).
* Preeti and those present from Navsarjan (two men) give the introduction to the research. M Can she tell me her name and how old she is?
Amu Premilaben Makvana, 35 years old.
M What does her family composition look like?
Amu She has a husband, he is 40, and five children. Four girls and one boy. The oldest daughter is already married.
M You have very beautiful children. About her education, what is her education level? Amu She attended school up to 5th grade.
M How many years ago did she get elected as Panchayat sarpanch?
Amu Around three years ago. Most of the work is done by her husband, so it’s a defector post. She is telling that he knows better than her, because he is handling most of the things.
M And why is that, that he knows better than her? Amu Because he is doing everything instead of her. M And does she know what kind of things he is doing? Amu The issue of water supply from the dam area. M Ok, drinking water.
Amu She is telling the kind of work they have done in the three years. So there’s the water issue, and the road. And they have constructed an ICDS center in the villages. And health issues of women, they have handled health issues for women.
M So especially about the last issue, did she have any influence in this or was it also mostly her husband’s work?
Amu Both equally contributed
M So it’s kind of a combined effort? Amu Yes
M She says that everything is done by her husband, but would she say that because they discuss everything together it’s kind of a joint effort, they have maybe a 50/50 say in things? Does she have an opinion on this?
* Before we can continue I have to finish my drink, small break in the interview Amu Your last sentence?
M So my last question was; at first she said that most of the work was done by her husband. But then when she described it seemed like it was maybe more of a 50/50, a joint effort. So would she say that she and her husband are mutually involved?
Amu She says it’s a mutual effort
M Can she maybe tell me something about the process in which she was elected?
Amu So it was on the reservation for the women, Dalit women. There was one other candidate. M How did she then get elected over the other candidate? What made her become the
representative?
Amu So interestingly both got equal votes. Then what they did was the thing with the coin… M Ah, they flipped a coin?
Amu Yes, and then she won and became sarpanch.
M How does she feel about being one? What does it make her feel about herself? Does she feel she can contribute together with her husband? Is it a positive feeling?
Amu She is telling that she is very much happy. And also the public of the village, they are happier because of the kind of work they have done for the village. They are thinking that in the next term they will also select her as a sarpanch.
M When does the next term begin?
Amu It’s a five year tenure, three years already past so there’s two years left.
M So people say they are happy with the kind of work that she has done, does she feel valued or well-esteemed by people because of the work she has done?
Amu Yes, she is valued
M More than she did before she got elected?
Amu So after she became as sarpanch she got more contact with the different people within the community. And people also got to know her.
M Was there a reason why before she didn’t have much contact or that much interaction with people? Was that for example due to her being a woman or due to caste?
* Group discussion in which the Navsarjan members, Premilaben’s husband and herself contribute equally
Amu She is talking with Preeti about her husband, about how he is well-educated, he’s got a BA (Bachelor in Education). Before she got posted as a sarpanch her husband was working as a social worker in the village. And he was also associated with the meetings in the school. So because of him, people knew her. Not because of her effort, but because of the kind of work her husband has done.
M Ok, and now she feels like she is valued more for herself?
Amu Yes, so after getting the post of sarpanch, she is feeling that most of the work is done by her husband. But she personally feels that it got improved after her getting the post of sarpanch. M Did she mention anything about.. Because she said that the reason people looked at her through her husband was mainly because of his higher position, did she mention anything about herself having a lower position? Or is that not an issue?
Amu She is saying that both get an equal amount of respect and value from the people. She is talking about the kind of communities staying in the village. About the Devla community. That is a poor community and most of the atrocities happen with them, with Dalits.
M In this village?
Amu Yes in this village, but also this area. But still this couple gets respect, her and her husband. M Has she ever been to other communities where she feels like it’s different? Has she travelled
to other places maybe outside of the district where she can notice it is a different kind of atmosphere?
Amu In terms of?
M She says that she gets a lot of respect and acknowledgement here, does she think this is specific to the kind of community where she’s in right now? Does she feel like it would be different if she went to maybe a specific other place that she’s been to? For example, did she grow up here?
* Discussion follows in which Premilaben is mainly talking but her husband also speaks
Amu She says that those who know her as a sarpanch in surrounding villages, they give equal respect to her. Those who know her as a sarpanch of this village.
M Does she attend the block and the district meetings? Or does her husband attend? Amu They attend at block and district level, by her husband.
* Another group discussion
Amu She goes everywhere, block level and district level as well as village level. M So she goes to the meetings. With herself or with her husband?
Amu By herself
M So she goes to the village, block and district level meetings, by herself.
Preeti (Own words). Can I say something? This area is very difficult, I told you. It is too difficult to work here in the panchayat. But she does it. She is brave, you know? And she did so much work in the panchayat. See, our social condition; husband is always in front, wife is behind. But, she
changes this. In particular this area, it is a problem. Because Dhanduka is, it is a part of Gujarat, but it is very conservative. Too difficult to work here in panchayat, but she did. There is no problem because her husband is very cooperative. So you write the major points.
* Preeti talks to Premilaben and the others from Navsarjan
Preeti (Own words). The majority of women reservation seats, is called sarpanch pati, in Gujarati tongue meaning ‘sarpanch husband’. So the majority of villages, the only one that works in the panchayats is the sarpanch husband. It is called SP. But she did so much here, because her husband supports her.
M So the main thing I understand is that because of her good understanding with her husband she is able to do the things that she wants to. Maybe she can tell me a little bit about the meetings she goes to, for example at the block level? How does she experience those; and does she feel like if she wants to contribute she is listened to? And then the district, but let’s make that a different question.
Amu She goes to the meetings, and they are training programs. Capacity building programs to improve their skill and leadership.
M Does she feel like that is effective, the capacity building program? * Long group discussion of approximately 5 minutes
Preeti She said, my education level is so less. I’m not much educated, but my husband is a graduate. And he is so intelligent, so the village people believe in him. Because he is very intelligent. So I learned so much from him. And now my confidence is increased. I can speak, I can go to panchayat, I can go to block…
M Ok. Did she talk about the capacity building program as well or?
Amu Whatever she gained from the training she applied. On the sanitation, drainage and other issues.
M So she was able to.. what did you say?
Amu She gained understanding on these issues of irrigation etc. from this particular capacity training program and she could apply them.
M Ok, so my last question about the meetings would be focused on the district meetings. Because the block meetings are mainly capacity building trainings; what are the district level meetings like?
Amu She also goes to the district level meetings.
Preeti Her husband goes if she can’t go. There is water management meeting. Amu She is supposed to go today but she’s not feeling well.
M Ok. So far these are all very positive stories. Can she maybe tell me about a negative experience, or struggles she is facing?
Amu They have to follow the decisions of the higher caste. The hierarchy is maintained on that level, they can’t go beyond their decisions. Suppose someone wants to do something in their particular locality of higher caste, for example something like CC road, they have to do that, otherwise there can be some kind of conflict.
M Ok so there are limitations, mainly to do with caste issues. And she feels like there is no way around this?
Amu Yes
M Does this occur often? Does she face problems like these many times? Amu From what I get, the way she explains, is that …
* Group discussion
Preeti She says that my the husband is so powerful in the village because he did so much. So that is why I can do so much, and I don’t feel any barriers in the panchayat.
M Except when the higher caste issue occurs.. Preeti No
M But I understood that there was a caste issue?
Amu She is telling that the practices of untouchability exist in the village, but they don’t exist on panchayat level. On the panchayat everyone is equal. She can sit in the equal seats, in the chair, she can share the tea with everyone. There is no untouchability in the panchayat level, but it exists on the village level.
M Does the village mainly exist of Dalit communities?
Amu So there are four or five communities staying in the village. And Dalit households are around 70.
M What are the kind of untouchability practices that occur in the village? Not on panchayat level, but in the village itself?
Amu In Indian society the status of men is higher than that of women. She is supporting that particular hierarchy in the village.
M She supports the differences between men and women? Amu She supports the gender differences yes.
M Can you maybe ask the untouchability practices question again? * Group discussion, inhibits Amu from asking question
M (To Amu) What are they discussing?
Amu About social issues, such as untouchability. About how it was ten years ago as opposed to how it is now. It was very much present ten years ago, but it is improving as time is passing. She is telling that women of Dalit caste have to obey the male of higher caste. They have to wear the veil and touch the feet of the higher caste men. It is a system of the higher caste aimed particularly at Dalit women.
M (To Amu) What exactly is she saying about it, what is her opinion?
Amu She is saying it should not be followed now, it is an old custom. She is saying that still many women follow that tradition, but that she doesn’t. She challenges that system. She is also telling that particularly in the public water context, two years ago there was not yet a water distribution system. So they used to bring water from the public well. There is one well in the village, so every community used to go there for water. So the practice of untouchability against Dalit was there. But now everyone gets the water, the tap-water at their home. After she was elected as a sarpanch she did the work on the water issue. She is thinking that this reduced the practices of untouchability.
M Because Dalit could not get the water from the public well?
Amu There was no tap system, no water tap, so they used to bring the water from the public well. That time upper caste used to practice untouchability against Dalit in the water issue. And now I just asked about the practice of untouchability at the school level, particularly about the midday meal. She said that then everyone sits together for food, and the food is distributed to every community so there is no untouchability.
M So no untouchability practices with regards to public education
Amu She says that sometimes she is scared about her post of sarpanch. Because as a woman, and as a Dalit woman, it is difficult to hold such a post in the village. But because of her husband, the kind of cooperation she is getting from her husband, she is more confident. That kind of status. Otherwise she says it would be difficult to hold this post. The kind of system and the kind of discrimination that happens in the village with Dalit women. Because of her husband she is quite well and she is happy to hold this post.
M Does she think it is important to set an example, being a Dalit woman in the post of sarpanch? * Question is not really understood, Preeti tries to explain it further. Amu leaves for the
washroom.
Preeti She said that our gram panchayat body exists of seven persons. So the majority of the body is supportive and in favor to us, so we have no problem. In the past three years we haven’t experienced many problems from the body or from the village people. The major point is; the majority, not only the majority but the entire body, all seven support her. She did so much work. Some panchayats you know; 50% you know. 50% on their side, 50% opposed. So that is the contradiction. Particularly here it is very good.
M I have a lot of information now, a lot to think about!
Preeti She said, without our permission, upper caste people can’t do anything. M That is very important. She and her husband do a very good job.
* Group discussion
Preeti She said that you have to prove yourself to many to become a sarpanch. And as a sarpanch, when people believe you, then you have to prepared to always talk to people. So we are always ready to listen to everything. We are not pretending to be different people, like sarpanch, we are very intelligent people, no. We always try to treat people equally. (Own words) That’s why they established a good dimension; they are always open. She says as a sarpanch you are like a dustbin, a dump, you always have to listen to everyone.
2. Naniben Bhikhabhai Parmar, 40. Sarpanch of Khas village, Ranpur block. 08-04-2015, 11.30.
Field Notes
In a short amount of time, the room of the Sarpanch’ house where we are sitting fills up with people. There are 25-30 people crammed in the small room to witness the interview. The sarpanch and her son are sitting on chairs facing me and Amu who are sitting on a stretcher, as are Preeti and the other Navsarjan members. Elderly men sit on the beds and the chairs, elderly women are sitting on the floor closest, in the back of the room there are mainly young men that are observing. There are no girls or young women present, but there are some children. The group discussion here takes place mainly between the men; the son of the sarpanch, Preeti and the elderly men of the village. The sarpanch does not really contribute to the interview; she rarely answers questions, her son does that.
Diary
The house of the sarpanch is located close to the entrance of the village and our arrival thus draws a lot of attention. As we head for the house, the entire village seems to flock towards it and the room is suddenly full of people. There are many elderly women around so it takes me a while to locate the sarpanch. She sits down on a chair because she is told to, she doesn’t seem very much in command despite it being her own house. She looks rather unsure of what to do or say, but she smiles a lot. Her son sits next to her. She almost never answers any of the questions that are directed at her, her son does this. She does not give her opinion on this or on this arrangement, she seems rather scared. Preeti confirms this suspicion as she says that the presence of especially the elderly men in the room prevents her from speaking up. Speaking in public seems to be a major issue, as I imagine that at the Gram Panchayat there will be even more elders present and the issues to address might be more difficult. That’s why it was interesting that Preeti asked her to pretend that this was a meeting and to present the main panchayat problems for us; she managed to do that quite well. However, although she knows about the issues, it is apparent that she doesn’t take any initiative herself in talking about them or providing solutions. Her son effectively manages the panchayat, which is interesting as it is usually the husband that fulfills this job as head of the family. Her husband is a rather frail man, who rarely speaks and very much stays on the background. It is evidently her son that people voted for or relied on as running the panchayat. It is also mentioned that Naniben’s grandfather was a sarpanch for 25 years; that she is now chosen shows how much family politics and a kind of dynasty mechanism are valued. The interview thus consists more of monologues given by the son about how he tries to empower his mother (which I very much doubt, as he seems quite happy with the power he holds on her behalf) and group discussions. Half-way through the interview I get quite frustrated with the son answering all the questions, however not much changes after me trying to ask if Naniben can please answer the questions. After the interview all of the around thirty people present seem happy to be able to move on to more interesting things, namely lunch and afterwards a musical performance of the towns singer, accompanying himself by an accordion-like instrument. As we leave the house all of the elderly women seem so happy; not just because of the photo-shoot, also because they can hold my hand and touch me on the way out.
Transcript
M Me
Amu Translator, when giving his own interpretations I put (own words)
Preeti Navsarjan Trust, Program Coordinator. She often gives background information during the interviews. What she says can thus often not be seen as direct translations. When she is giving her own interpretations I put (own words).
* Preeti and those present from Navsarjan (two men) give the introduction to the research. Name and age is given before the actual interview.
Amu She got elected before three years
M Three years ago, ok. Can you ask her about her family? Did she grow up here, what is her family background?
* Amu maybe didn’t understand my question as the topic changed to education
Amu She is literate; she didn’t attend school but she can read and write. She is literate so she can read and write.
M Is she married; can she tell me about her husband and her family?
Amu She has a family of seven, including her husband, two sons and one daughter, and one granddaughter.
M So she has worked as a sarpanch for three years; can she maybe tell me about the process how she got elected, how that went?
*` Her son answers the question
Amu There were two other candidates in that particular election. Interestingly she got elected by one vote.
M Over the course of the three years, would she describe her experiences as being good? Amu She is happy about all the work she has done in the village. She helps everyone in the village
as well as outside.
M Does she have her own office? Amu No she doesn’t.
M So she is happy with the kind of things she has achieved. What kind of things would she count as her experience?
Amu The kind of work she has done as a sarpanch here is mainly on housing, the construction of housing. The housing scheme, she mobilized that particular scheme for people that are eligible. Because there are certain criteria before you can benefit from that scheme. She did that for them. And another thing is that they constructed a drainage system, so sanitation.
M So she would say that the housing and water-related issues are the main things. Amu Yes
M Would she say that she has a positive relationship with the people in the village? How would she describe that relationship?
Amu She says everything is fine.
M Can she give me an example of a recent issue or something that shows her work as a sarpanch? * Preeti is talking to the sarpanch
M (To Amu) What is Preeti saying? Amu She is telling her to be relaxed.
M There are also so many people in here right now..
Amu So he (man sitting next to her) is her son. He is always helping her. With his mother together they do collective work.
M So they work together as a family?
Amu Yes. Also they stay together as a collective family. Regarding your last question, she said that she attended a meeting at the panchayat level and that she speaks in it regarding the issues. M That was a village meeting?
Amu Yes. So the panchayat meeting is where they get together with the members and the other is the gram panchayat.
M Does she also attend the meetings at district level? * A lot of people speaking all at once
M Do you think she is ok? Is she very nervous? Amu The kind of people in here, all coming inside * More raised voices. Amu asks his question Amu Yes, she goes there.
M Can you ask her if she is comfortable, is she ok? Preeti (To me) Ask her the major challenges she faced
M Yes, I’ll get to that. We were just at the topic of the meetings so I just want to finish that. So she goes to the district meetings, what is her experience of those?
* Her son and her jointly answer the question, but mostly he is talking.
Amu They said similar things to the woman yesterday, about the training program. And she goes there. And she mentioned that it is good. So that is a good experience.
M Ok. It’s just that I would like her (emphasis) to answer the questions. Ok, so let’s ask her what the major challenges are she is facing, not just in the meeting but in general being a sarpanch? * Preeti talks to the sarpanch
Preeti (Own words) At least she attends the monthly meeting. But you see, elderly men come inside, so she is afraid. It is an Indian tradition you know, gender structure. And, she is from the Dalit community, so she has to take order from males within the Dalit community, but also upper caste males. So, two types of oppression.
Amu Major challenges she faced, because she doesn’t have any educational experience, the kind of technical meetings when they have to address, so that in the meetings they have to speak regarding the technicality. Otherwise she says that she has a good experience. Sometimes what happened, for example with the housing, according to the eligibility not everyone can get that scheme. So sometimes someone who can’t get the scheme they claim it. These are the kind of challenges you face as a leader or village head. So she, or he, her son, said that that is the main challenge as a sarpanch.
M How does she experience being a female sarpanch? Are there any gender issues that she is noticing?
* Son answers again. Preeti then starts asking further questions to Naniben.
Amu As a female, she said that because the female presence is very low, 90% is men, and 10% female.
Preeti (Own words) Her son is supportive
Amu So because of the low ratio there is gender based exclusion.
M And in what ways does that show? Does she feel burdened to speak up or? Does she feel burdened to step into a room? Maybe she can give a specific example of how it expresses itself?
Amu During a meeting?
M Yes
* Son answers
Amu She says that she speaks less when she has to speak in the public regarding the issues. So Preeti has been asking, telling her, how do you speak in the public as a sarpanch; pretend this is the meeting and this is the audience of villagers and speak about the current major issues of the village. She is explaining that there is the water issue and the other thing is the road, transportation becomes difficult during the monsoon/rainy season.
M But she feels like she can address those issues? Amu She did, and she does.
M Does that mean that the issues are then being handled? Amu One thing is clear; most of the work is done by her son.
M Yes, I’ll get to that in a bit.
Amu So as I said, most of the work is done by her son. So she doesn’t have to face challenging issues. But whenever she speaks she says she does so fearlessly and confidently.
M Preeti with solution do you mean the solutions to the problems she mentioned? Preeti Yes the drinking water and the road issue. What does she think is the solution?
M Ok and then afterwards I want to ask more about her sons involvement. But let’s start with this; so she mentioned the infrastructure issue, the road. So aside from the water that would be the main problem. What would she see as a solution?
*Son answers the question
Amu So currently they are in the process of finding a solution to the problem. But it is kind of difficult. The amount of money assigned by the officials is very less compared to the actual budget. It would be kind of impossible to address this issue.
M Does she think she is able to handle these issues without the help of her son? * Question not addressed
Amu This person is saying that they have been doing hard work over the past three years. But it is difficult to get a solution because the officials don’t support them and say that they are requesting a big amount of money and the government is not supporting that. So he thinks it would be impossible to find a solution.
M Ok, because of the budget allocation problem. So her son helps her with almost everything, right? And does she think she could manage without his help?
Amu Preeti and her son are now talking, and discussing how he should be encouraging her to work independently. He is trying to empower his mother as a woman and do more by herself, he motivates his mother to do more things independently.
M Are there any main things she has learnt over the past three years; not about the issues content-wise but for example about how to handle things procedurally?
* She starts answering, her son finishes for her
Amu She became aware about the system. About the gram sabha, about the kind of work that is done.
M Are there any things in the future that she would like to address or see changed?
Amu She is telling how she wants to work on the housing scheme and the drainage system. In the following two years of her tenure she wants to address this.
Amu They are discussing that this Dalit community in this village is more aware and educated compared to those in other villages. They know a lot about government processes and are economically sound, they know better than other communities.
M Why is that do you think? Is it education, or something else? How come specifically this village? Amu He mentioned that most of the communities education was funded through government
programs. So subsequently the education improved.
* Long discussion going on, me and Amu are going through the remaining questions M Does she feel proud to be a sarpanch?
Preeti There is also the issue of streetlights
Amu What she mentioned is the water connection system of the village. There is one lake near the public well, so what they do is that they transport the water from the lake to the well and from the well there is another connection to the households.
M That is a good system
Amu She said she has immense happiness because she is a sarpanch, she feels proud.
Preeti Her grandfather was a sarpanch for many years, 25 years continuously. Her family is completely involved in gram panchayat.
Amu (Own words) That is like the Gandhi politics, the family politics of India.
Preeti (Own words) Women reservation, so obviously the family promotes her. But she is very .. Amu (Own words) She is learning and improving herself gradually
Preeti (Own words) Her son is the major person. But what we discussed yesterday, in this area, as a female, as a Dalit woman, you can’t do anything without the family support. (Women)
reservation is a policy but the reality on the ground is different. Always what we experience at the grassroots level the upper-caste maintain the social hegemony, whether it is a Dalit male or female sarpanch. But here it is different, because her son is so powerful.
Amu (Own words) And in this village the Dalit community is more powerful educationally and economically than in other villages. So they don’t allow upper caste control. That is the unique thing in this village.
Preeti She is the ceremonial person
Amu Of an Indian national festival, she conducts the ceremony.
Preeti That was a challenge but she did it. She also pays visits to schools, every twenty days. M So she is a very good representative
Amu She makes sure that the government education system works well Amu (Own words) Good leadership skills
Amu In her tenure, she conducted a gram shabha, and they took many pictures.
Preeti According to government rules every panchayat has to organize four gram panchayats each year. So they organize them for 150 villages. It’s a very good example of democracy
Preeti (To me) I asked him, is corruption reduced or decreased. Amu (Own words) Because everyone takes their own share.. M I have no more questions, can you thank her for me?
3. Kaliben Dhanjibhai Solanki, 50. Sarpanch of Jalila village, Ranpur block. 08-04, 14.30.
Field Notes
Upon arriving at the sarpanch residence, the elderly sarpanch is sat down to first talk to Amu and Preeti. A lengthy discussion follows, in which the men (Navsarjan Trust, and two men that turn out the be the husband and the brother in law of the Sarpanch) also contribute. They are sitting behind me, and opposite me is the sarpanch. She is subdued and only talks when spoken to. She sits rather hunched and defensive, she doesn’t have an open posture. After saying that she can’t contribute because she ‘doesn’t know anything’, I ask her if she changes my mind; Amu and Preeti don’t even need to press, she says yes quite quickly. All the other answers are answered by her, she doesn’t look for help to the other men. Sometimes they do contribute, but they are having their own conversation in the back so our interview is not the main center of attention. There are a couple of children that are witnessing the interview; however, like the men, they are also occupied with other things such as their household tasks. The elderly girls mainly carry these out. After the interview we visit two other households in the village. In the second, a young woman in a red sari sits on the ground, tending to her two young children as the guests and the men of the house sit on chairs. I’m told that she her husband is expired and she now thus lives by herself in the house of her in-laws. As her brother in law enters the house, she pulls the sari over her face so she is fully veiled. Of her two young children, the boy is watching tv while the girl fetches the drinks.
Diary
As we sit down on the porch of a rather big joint-house, there is only a group of men present that answer some of the questions by my party. After a while an elderly lady, the sarpanch, who is looking rather scared is ushered to the opposite bench. When instead of the usual introduction that is made there is a long discussion with the sarpanch, in which she doesn’t really talk but the men of the family sitting behind us mostly answer, I sense that there may be a little bit of a problem. After a while Preeti says that ‘she knows nothing’, so there is no use doing the interview. I say that on my account it doesn’t matter whether she has knowledge on the panchayat issues, that I would still very much like to talk to her if she is willing to answer my questions. I’m actually rather surprised when she says that she will rather quickly, it seemed like maybe she just had to overcome a barrier in order to talk, or was very modest. Even more surprised was I when I found that her first statement of ‘knowing nothing’ was definitely not true, as she described all of the issues in the village that are handled by the panchayat by herself. I got the feeling that the major thing that makes her feel like she has no knowledge is her illiteracy. She admitted later in the interview that at first she was scared; I assume that she thought she would not be able to answer the questions. This insecurity I think is again due to her lack of education. The fact that her brother in law is in effective control of the panchayat probably also contributed to her feeling of lack of competency to answer my questions. That she was elected in a general (women) seat is quite striking; but then she is only in that place as a strategic proxy because no one else is strong enough to represent their specific community. It is unfathomable to me that your family pushes you forward as a candidate when you know you don’t have any capacities, and you are just an instrument through which your brother in law manages the village.
Transcript
M Me
Amu Translator, when giving his own interpretations I put (own words)
Preeti Navsarjan Trust, Program Coordinator. She often gives background information during the interviews. What she says can thus often not be seen as direct translations. When she is giving own interpretations I put (own words).
* Conversation starts on her becoming a sarpanch Amu She got elected three years ago
M What is her education level? Amu She is illiterate
M Can she tell me a little bit about the election process?
Amu There were five other candidates, women, in that election. She got elected on a general women’s reservation seat.
M And with what majority did she get elected? Amu She got seven more votes.
M Did she want to run for sarpanch herself? How did she get in the election?
Amu She got elected as sarpanch, and she wanted to win that particular election. Her family members, her brother in law, particularly male persons, they run it on behalf of her. They wanted her to get elected on the reservation for women. The moment she got elected the power went to them. She only stamps the forms, but the whole administrative process is done by her brother in law.
M Is she happy with that arrangement?
Amu She is saying that since she is illiterate, she doesn’t know anything regarding this particular kind of work they’re supposed to do. But she only does the signatures, most of the work is done by the brother in law.
M Does she feel like because of his education her brother is better equipped for this task? Is it only her education that is holding her back or also the fact that she is a woman?
Amu (Own words) we cannot deny the gender aspect in this case
Preeti (Own words) he is the real sarpanch of the village. Look at her age. It is completely in the hands of the men why she is elected. You understand, but she doesn’t understand. Your question is right.
M I just really would like her to answer without the help of the men in the back. * Preeti addresses the men and the sarpanch as well. Discussion follows.
Preeti There are 70 Dalit households in the village, but only two families are able to give a fight to upper caste. Only two families. So, when government declared general seat and women seat, they had her nominated. So that is the politics behind it.
M There are only two upper caste families? I don’t understand..
Amu (Own words) There are 70 Dalit households, but only two households who can counter the hegemony of the upper caste.
M Why is that?
Amu Strong politics, they are connected to a political party and they rule on block panchayat level. Preeti (Own words) So that is the challenge; how can we fight.. So that is why she is nominated M Because of the women reservation seat
Preeti (Own words) The other 68 families were not courageous. And the whole important thing is, it is a general seat. It is very challenging for a Dalit to be elected in a general seat.
Amu So what happened. In the caste system, there is a conflict that occurred between these two families and the upper-caste members. It recently happened that they serve higher in the house of this person, his brother, he is the leader and a representative at the block panchayat level. So there is the caste conflict, and hegemony and politics, everything.
Amu What he is telling is that normally it is very difficult as a Dalit woman to get elected on a general seat. But in this village, the people, even the non-Dalit community all come together with the different castes. All the lower castes, non-Dalit, helped this lady get elected.
M That is very interesting politics
Amu She is telling that she goes to the meetings, to the gram panchayats. M And when she attends, does she listen?
Amu Yes, she doesn’t speak there, she just listens. She knows the system a little bit. She is mentioning the kind of work they have done. They have constructed an office, a gram panchayat office.
M Does she go the office?
Amu Yes, when it is necessary, when they require her presence she goes. M And what does she then do?
Amu She signs the documents M So she goes occasionally to sign
Preeti (Own words) That is why there is a major focus on gender, for example with our campaign to end violence against women. We covered around 119 villages. It is a main thing, because there is lots of problems with the upper caste, casteism, untouchability. But you see, on gender level, there are so many problems too.
M On the educational aspect, is there a school in the village? Amu Yes there is primary school, up to 8th grade, and the children go.
Preeti (own words) I think that this a backward area in Ahmedabad district. The patriarchy is very strong and much present here in this whole area. Upper caste and untouchability is also a problem, but you can see now that Dalit are organized on a political level. They are fighting the upper caste. Dalit are now political, the difference is less. The major change I see is that Dalit are now on one level politically. In the beginning with me, suppose I just write my plan, how do I want to do it.
* It is very noisy in the surroundings so the following might be slightly flawed
My plan is now on women empowerment, of women village panchayat members. When we organized exposure, then the women empowerment level is high. Because nobody is working her. Only Navsarjan is working here. To have more clarity, I tell you, Navsarjan is the only NGO working on Dalit issues. Most of the NGO’s work on development issues. That is also another problem of NGO’s.
M That they don’t work on social issues..
Preeti Yes. Because the issue is very critical and dangerous, nobody wants to put their hands into it. * Back on topic
Amu The occupation of her husband is farming. And she is explaining what she wants two do in the next two years. Regarding drainage, they have completed the drainage system for half the village, so the other half is still left. They want to complete is within two years. Another thing is the land for housing; the government land is available for the panchayat. So they want to allot it to needy people in the next year.
M So she knows the issues. She probably has a lot more knowledge than she thinks she has. Amu She is telling that at first she was scared. Because of us. Not only you, but also us. Because she
hadn’t had such exposure before. Still she is very happy so far with this process. M I’m very happy with what she has shared.
Amu They (the men) are saying that they are trying to empower her and have her take more initiative.
4. Pintuben Jagdishbhai Senma, 33. Sarpanch of Rahemalpur village, Viramgam block. 09-04, 10.30.
Field notes
Although still partly under construction, Pintuben and her family live in a rather big house that is situated in a central position in the village of Rahemalpur. There were around 26 other people present in the porch-like room (open to the roadside) when I held the interview with Pintuben. Elderly men were sitting on chairs and I as visitor on one of the beds, whereas she herself sat on the floor. In the back of the room there were many children present. Her husband sat in the center of the circle while she was sitting rather on the side, her son was also attending the interview whereas her daughter continued with doing her chores. His body language was rather open, whereas she sat a little hunched. The people present were mainly elderly men and children. The first twenty minutes of the interview there was a lot of group discussion, mainly among the men, led by Pintuben’s husband. He answered most of the questions before she had a chance to. However he left the room twenty minutes into the interview to take a phone call. Only from that moment on did Pintuben look directly at me or the translator when answering a question, instead of at her husband, and did she answer questions herself. He returned towards the end of the interview when discussing the caste-issues, and then resumed answering questions directed at her.
Diary
Pintuben only enters the ‘room’ after a while as she is still performing what seem to be wifely duties (getting water and feeding the cows). By the time she enters all the men are already sitting down on the chairs, as are me and my party. I try to stand up, but as usual am ushered down very quickly. She timidly moves to the middle of the circle, next to her husband. In the beginning she seems very scared, and answers only the beginning questions (name, education, etc). She attended school up to fourth grade and she can only read Gujarati, it is unclear whether she can also write. As I only found out later that illiteracy is a big issue I did not ask for sufficient details on her reading/writing abilities. As soon as I get to the slightly ‘heavier’ questions, such as what the election process that led up to her being sarpanch was like, her husband starts answering for her without giving her any opportunity. After three questions that proceed like this, despite me emphasizing to ‘ask HER’ and what does ‘SHE’ think, and Amu addressing all the questions directly at her, the three members of Navsarjan Trust that are with me start a discussion with him. They argued that she is the sarpanch, not him, and that she should answer the questions. Although the discussion is in every way about her and her participation she does not get involved in it; rather it is led by her husband. During the interview Preeti hints at the issue of child marriage; only then did it occur to me to ask for the ages at which the women are married. I was shocked to hear she was only 12. Another important issue that I have disregarded up until now is internal Dalit sub-caste-ism; aside from her age when she married her subjugate position as lower-caste seem to contribute to the dynamics within their marriage. The fact that she was so young when she married also has to do with her being a lower caste; the poorer families marry their daughter’s off earlier out of economic reasons. It is very clear that when her husband leaves the room she feels more free to speak up and when she does so it seems that she is very well aware of the issues that are going on within the panchayat. She also seems to know exactly what I’m getting at when discussing social customs, and she starts talking about the veiling custom herself, calling it a ‘bottleneck’. However, despite of identifying it as a problem, she says it has to be abided by. Another main gender issue that she mentions out of herself is the fact that she is expected to take care of the household, which means that she does not have time to for example travel to block or district meetings. It seems like although she has increased duties because of her political involvement, the latter seemingly being staged by her husband, he does not help with or lighten her household duties. Nevertheless, she states that being a
Sarpanch brings her ‘immense happiness’; I think this is due to the fulfilment of her husbands wishes, the increase in status that she mentions, as well as the economic uplifting. The latter is somewhat puzzling for me as sarpanches do not get any monetary compensation for performing their duties; maybe some creative bookkeeping is involved. Unfortunately her husband mainly takes the untouchability- questions upon him to answer. After the interview as we are getting ready for lunch, he tells a story about the temple his family paid to have built. Although they financed the construction of the temple, the Brahmins in the village do not allow the family to enter because of their caste status.
Transcript
M Me
Amu Translator, when giving his own interpretations I put (own words)
Preeti Navsarjan Trust, Program Coordinator. She often gives background information during the interviews. What she says can thus often not be seen as direct translations. When she is giving own interpretations I put (own words).
* Preeti, Ramulaben and Amu give an introduction and explanation of the research M What is your name and how old are you?
Amu Pintuben, and 33 years old
M Do you have any children, what is your family composed of?
Amu There are five family members; I have two children, a boy and a girl. The grandfather of my husband lives here as well.
M When were you elected as a sarpanch and how did the election process go?
Amu (Husband answers) She was elected on a scheduled caste, women’s reservation seat three years ago. There were five candidates in total and she received 450 votes with which she won. The other candidates got very few votes.
M Does she know the reasons why people voted for her?
Amu (Husband answers) Because of my family background, my family has always been politically involved.
* Preeti addresses the issue of him answering the questions that are directed at her, the sarpanch. I don’t know what exactly is said in this discussion?
M What would she say were the main issues that the panchayat dealt with in the last three years? * Husband starts to answer, discussion on him answering the questions instead of her starts again. Eventually she starts answering and is quickly interrupted by him, finishing her answer. Amu This village is divided in two localities. This is the new part of the village and thus not as
developed as the main part of the village. What both explained is that they constructed the water supply connection and solved the problem of electricity. Before they got elected there was no electricity in these houses.
M (To Amu) Did she mostly answer this or did he? Because she started saying something and then he finished it.
Amu I translated what she said, not what he said.
M Ok good. So it’s mainly the water issue. Does she attend the meetings; at village, block and/or district? And again, I’m asking her not him
Amu (Husband answered). She says that she goes to the meetings at panchayat (village) level. Preeti She’s scared
M Can we do anything to make her less scared?
Preeti She is the sarpanch from the Dalit community, but you know within the Dalit community there are so many subcastes. She is from the subcaste on the bottom. And within that community there is a lack of education, and also child marriage.
M How old was she when she got married, can you ask? Amu She was twelve
M Let’s try to ask some more general questions and see how that works out. How does she experience being in the meetings, what are her feelings about them? And what does she do during them; does she listen, does she speak up?
* Preeti asks the question, husband answers. No translation as I wanted her answer, not his. A completely off-topic discussion follows on the age of one of the men present who is apparently 105.
Preeti You see, the patriarchy is so much present. Also this is a lower community mentality; girls have no right to education or to go outside. All females should do is take care of the house.
* Discussion among the men on panchayat duties. At 22.00 the husband receives one of his frequent phone-calls; however for this one he moves outside to take it, for the following question Pintuben answers the questions herself.
M So maybe now you can ask the question I just asked about her experience on the meetings again?
Amu She’s telling that people expect her to work on these issues, the infrastructure and water & sanitation and electricity. That way she got value from the people, being a woman and particularly a Dalit woman. To work as a sarpanch it is a big achievement for her she feels good and also she finds some changes in her life. She was also saying that if she has to work they have to give up certain customs and traditions in society, that kind of prejudices. She wants to break the nonsense of the social customs.
M Ok. And what specific social customs are problematic when she tries to work on certain issues within the panchayat?
Amu She replied differently but it is also important. She said that before she started her work in the village, she said that before that she called a meeting to address a particular issue on a school for the village children and she spoke in the public. They asked her opinion and then they all agreed.The social custom, the veil system, is the only bottleneck for being a woman in this particular area.
M She says this herself? (This was unclear due to constant group discussion during the interview) Amu Yes. And also she says that whenever she spoke, she spoke confidently without fear. In front
of everyone, the elderly and the upper-caste community, without fear. But still, they follow certain customs and they believe they should still be maintained in the village.
M So she feels like customs such as the veiling should be abolished? What exactly does she say? Amu She says that it is the only thing that forms an obstruction to present herself properly. M Ok, because people expect her to cover up?
Amu Yes. But otherwise she sits on a chair, she speaks in the meetings etc.
M Ok. In the following two years, what does she still want to see changed? Does she have any ideas for specific projects?
Amu She highlights two issues. One is the housing scheme for poor people in the villages, who don’t have proper houses. So she wants to provide them houses. And another important thing she mentions is the road; during the monsoon season, during the rainy season, because of water lodging and everything the road gets filled so it’s difficult to move on the road, so she wants to construct a good road. So one thing she mentions is the housing, through the government scheme, and the other thing is the road, because of the problem in the rainy season.
M And does she think she will be able to achieve these two things? Amu She has confidence that she will.
M To get back to the social customs; she mentioned that because there are expectations to for example wear a veil in meetings this inhibits her, what does she see as a solution? Does she think there is a way she can tackle this?
Amu She gave the conservative/traditional justification; she said that it should be followed, according to society.
Preeti Did you hear the reason? She says that if she does not cover her face, her father’s respect is gone.
M Ok, so for family respect. So this is mainly a gender obstacle; are there any other obstacles caste related, social status obstacles that she is facing?
Amu (Husband has returned and answers the question) Yes, it still exists, but it got reduced. The caste factor, around 50%.
M Can she (emphasis) give specific examples, about how it was before and how it got reduced? Preeti (Husband answers) What he said: if I go to other upper-caste houses he can sit anywhere. Amu He can freely move into their houses, inside, outside and sit anywhere.
Preeti Because he is from upper-caste. So much power to do anything. Amu (Own words) He can cross any boundary
Preeti Understand he is the sarpanch. Even though she is the sarpanch and he is the sarpanch’ husband. Sarpanch is the main person, head person of village, but she is not allowed in upper caste houses. This is the general caste-hierarchy, but see the internal caste hierarchy, sub-casteism. The hierarchy creates so much problems within the Dalit community, and also the gender mentality creates many problems. So we have a solution of caste, but not of gender, because of the mentality of the community. Gender is an internal problem, caste is an outside problem. So we can hide it, but not the internal ..
Amu (Own words) The social system is a lot more important than the political system. You cannot take the social hegemony away, caste is still the main factor.
M Ok, I understand. She didn’t really give specific examples, I think he mainly did, right? Amu Yes
M Do you think she can give me specific examples? Because I understand, but I just need to hear it from her. Because if I just write down ‘it is there’, then I can’t proof anything.
Amu She mentions that being a Dalit woman, she was not getting a chair. Dalit men can get a chair at houses, but Dalit women can’t. But ever she got elected as a sarpanch, she can get it. So that was the change. An important thing she mentioned was that it’s not only the political uplifting, but also the economic uplifting. The economic status got improved because of her being a sarpanch. So political as well as economic empowerment has helped her to gain respect from upper-caste.
M Ok, I really needed the specific examples so I’m happy she could give them.
Amu (Own words) An important thing we got from here is also the vote margin, you can see how many votes she got compared to people in other villages.
M Yes, I think that can mainly be attributed to her husband’s standing. So people here don’t vote for a person, but for family.
Amu Family, yes.
M Can you ask her whether being a sarpanch makes her happy?
Amu She feels immense happiness. Because being a sarpanch she can go outside the village, example to the capital of Gujarat Ghandinagar. But sometimes the gender dimension can create problems.
Preeti She has so much work in the house; she has the buffaloes, the farm, the family… M So she is very busy
Amu (Own words) I think she wants to work independently you know, but the gender system does not allow her to go out, to do that.
Preeti I think that somebody taking initiative for her, because she can’t do as much M Thank her so much for answering all my questions
Amu She said she wanted to read your English, what you write down, So I asked her, do you know how to read? She said, only in Gujarati.
